The Journey Toward Peace in the Middle East with Rabbi Ken Spiro

Jeff talks with Rabbi Ken Spiro, historian, licensed tour guide, speaker and teacher at Aish HaTorah in Jerusalem. Ken shares from his Jewish perspective about the history of the ongoing Palestinian conflict and the journey towards peace. He also gives his thoughts on the recent Abraham Accord, the peace deal between Israel, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates.

Transcript

Chris Atkins, One Media: 0:02

Welcome to the 'Keeping at Israel' podcast with Jeff Futers. We're Jeff and his guests talk everything Israel as it relates to Christian faith and the church. If you are a Christian and you stand with Israel, you will be encouraged and challenged by this podcast. And if you're not so sure about the whole Israel thing, you need to learn how your faith connects with Israel, and why standing with Israel matters. Now here's Jeff with today's guest.

Jeff Futers: 0:29

Hi, and welcome to another edition of the 'Keeping it Israel' podcast. My name is Jeff, I'm your host, and my guest today is Rabbi Ken Spiro. Ken is a Yeshiva teacher. He's a religious Jew teaches at Aish HaTorah, in the city of Jerusalem, the Old City of Jerusalem. And Ken has an incredible mind. He's an amazing historian. He's also a licensed tour guide, he'll tell you a number of those things about him. We're going to talk today about Israel and the journey toward peace in the Middle East. And Ken will comment some of his thoughts about how we got here. And also what this most recent peace deal the Abraham accord will mean for Israel. And I know you're going to find this interesting. Let's join Ken and myself as we chat together about peace in the Middle East. Welcome to the podcast. And it's great to have you with us today. My guest today is Rabbi Ken Spiro from Asia HaTorah. And Ken, you are doing this part time you also have a number of other gigs. Tell us a little bit more about about all that you're doing, first of all, before we jump into our topic today,

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 1:37

Thanks for having me on the show, by the way. I've become an expert at Zoom. In the last seven months. Basically I speak in various formats. I'm an expat America... American living in Israel going on 39 years now I'm living in the Old City, Jerusalem. You can see in the image, got to get the right way. Where there that end is there...I got this backwards. I'm not standing outside the Jaffa Gate, it's a picture I took during the first lockdown now we're in lockdown number two. I teach part time in a Yeshiva, an institution for Jewish education in the Old City called Aish HaTorah. It's my part time job, I'm also a licensed tour guide, speaker, author, historian. So I mix and match the same skills in different formats and locations.

Jeff Futers: 2:22

Yeah. And Ken if if people want to find out more about what you're doing, I know you have a website, what's what's your website for our listeners.

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 2:28

So my websi`te is Ken Spiro kensp as in Peter iro kenspiro.com, it's all my content is on there for free. Listen, lots of video content, listen, read and watch on you know, history, Jewish history, religion, politics, morality, lots of good stuff up there.

Jeff Futers: 2:50

Fantastic. Well, we'll make sure that we print that also below, so that people who are watching can get it off the screen, we'll put it in all of the transcripts and so on. Ken, it's great to...it has been great, I should say, to get to know you over the last few years, our mutual friend, Chris Atkins, from One Media, who I know that you've been connecting with for a number of years now. And he introduced us, we have been able to get together a number of times and and I love the perspective that you bring, especially on, you know, the the impact of a lot of what has been happening in the world as it relates to Israel, and to the sort of Arab Palestinian conflict, and I use the word conflict to start but what I what I want us to sort of lean towards is, is the peace side of that equation. And for the last 70 plus years, there's been this issue going on in Israel. And I want you to just to help our listeners perhaps understand a little better, this journey towards peace, I'll call it because I know, I know, it's all about perspective. And I think from the Israeli side, I'm fairly confident from the Israeli side, that they would want this to be a journey towards peace. We're not sure that everyone always feels that way, though. So just talk a little bit about the last seventy years and kind of what's been going on.

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 4:26

Okay. It's a huge question, but I'll try and simplify it. Peace process for dummies, not that you guys listening are dummies, but it really is. Because there's a lot of confusion about it because the media tends to put a spin on it. This cycle of violence. I hate that. You know that I I might sound like I'm taking a side in this. You know, I'm a religious Jew living in Israel, but I think I like to believe that I'm being 100% factual when I say all the following things, although it certainly will point the finger in a certain direction as to who's responsible for the lack of peace. The real issue Jeff has always been the you know, the Palestinian thing is a smokescreen. I could do a whole class on the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the Palestinian claim, given there never was a Palestinian people in the ancient world that were Philistines, but no Palestinians, they're not related. But I always like to tell people I say it's never been about creating a Palestinian state. That's a smokescreen. The issue has been, even before Israel was born as a state in 1948, the inability of the Arab world collectively to accept the existence of a Jewish state of any size with any borders and as to why that is so I have multiple presentations on. Much of it has to do with the Islamic worldview about territory that was controlled by Muslims and even though we Jewish people were in the land of Israel 1900 years, Joshua leads the Jews into Israel 1900 years before Omar iben Al-Khatab, the square at Jaffa Gate in back of me over there is named after him, brought Muslims in conquering, you know, the Middle East to Jerusalem. That was 1900 years later. So, so the train of thought just pulled out without me on it, I have to apologize.

Jeff Futers: 6:15

No worries...

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 6:17

The the there is an... the Arab world did control the Middle East for 1300 years, different Islamic dynasties. You know, Umayyads and Abbasids, Ayyubids, Mamluk, Seljuks, Ottoman, so it was Islamic territory, but they're not the indigenous people. You know, part of the Islamic worldview is the idea that what is Islamic can never go back to being non Islamic, and the non Muslim monotheists that are called Dhimmi. Which are you and I, by the way, Christians and Jews are never allowed to rule over even if it's benignly over Muslim so the the creation of the State of Israel is, in both those aspects impossible to accept theologically for Muslims, its territory that was under Islamic control, it's now under control of Dhimmi, who albeit in a democracy. 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs, most of them Muslims. But still, that's kind of theologically unacceptable. It's politically unacceptable. But if you study the history, even before Israel declared itself a state, the Arab world has been rejecting the notion of the Jewish state of any size, nothing to do with borders or occupation of supposedly Palestinian territory they call for Israel's destruction, before it was even born in 1948. And every time that Israel has tried to offer to live at peace when compromising it's been rejected. Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister, when he reads the Declaration of Independence, calls for peace with all our Arab neighbors and to our...you know, the Arab world immediately declares war in Israel. The Egyptian Air Force bombs, Tel Aviv two hours later, and five Arab armies declare and invade. And even before 1967, Six Day War when Israel got a hold of those territories, which everyone likes to call the West Bank. You know, Jerusalem was a divided city, Jordan sat in the entire, you know, eastern side of the city and the Old City, and they were still trying to destroy us. But what led to the 67 War, which led to Israel's supposedly occupation, which I think is an incorrect term. There was yet a second attempt in 67 of the Arab world to destroy the Jewish state immediately after that war. Lavie Eshkol, the Prime Minister again says we'll give the territory back just make peace with us. The Arab world rejects it again. Finally, 1979 It's interesting, Jeff, that I'm Zeb Jabotinsky, the founder of the revisionist Zionist movement. Like he's like the grandfather of the political right in Israel, the Likud party. He had a great he had a saying, the it was called the iron wall, but he said the Arabs will only make peace with us when they realize they can't destroy us. So after the 73 War, the Yom Kippur war which although Israel really won, it was viewed as a victory by the Egyptians at least they were for a brief period of time able to grab some territory from Israel. They lost it all again. Egypt in 79 makes peace and what does Israel do? Israel is the only country that instead of doing peace for peace, which is the normal deal its land for peace. Israel gives what's called the Sinai which is bigger than the state of Israel to Egypt, for what turned out to be a very cold peace treaty. But nonetheless, it was a game changer. That happened again in 1994. With Itzhak Rabin and King Hussein of Jordan, not so much territory was changed. But what we see over and over again, is that every time an Arab state has been willing to break with the 'we're not accepting a Jewish state of any size,' Israel has not only willingly made peace, but sacrificed territory deep strategic territory. In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they pulled out large chunks of Judea and Samaria, giving it to the Palestinian Authority, which then launched a number of terrorist wars against Israel, the intifadas in 2000 and 2007. We had both Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert offered Arafat to withdraw to the pre 67 basis for the ceasefire lines that proceeded the Six Day War and to re divide Jerusalem! And Arafat said no. So so you know, the only thing stopping the creation of a Palestinian entity state, whatever you want is the cost of being recognized. Even Arafat said the day I make peace with Israel is the last day I'm alive because, you know, the factions within his own people would kill him. So it's always been about that until we've seen now a bit of a game changer, the recent peace treaties, but I've already been talking for too long. So I'll let you go back and ask me some more questions.

Jeff Futers: 10:35

Yeah. So before before we move on to to this most recent game changer, which I'm very, very intrigued to hear your your take on. Talk to us a little bit about that idea that the Palestinian state is just a smokescreen. Talk to us about, who were the people? Who were the people before 1947 who were in the land? What were they called? And and how do we get from, from Arab residents of Judea or Palestine to Palestinians?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 11:11

Sure, that's a great question. And one people do not understand the whole term Palestine, comes from the Philistines. The Philistines are a seafaring people whenever we're not exactly sure of their origins. But most historians archaeologists believe they migrated from the area that is today, Greece, many, many thousands of years ago, middle bronze period, which is the time of Abraham and earlier even, you know, 3000 plus years ago, they're not the indigenous population, only Canaanites who don't exist anymore, which is a generic term used for seven different people to Hitites and the Perezites and the Jebusites, who lived in Jerusalem before it was a Jewish city. They're the only people who could claim if they still existed, to be more authentic and indigenous to the land. So these these Philistines migrated for various reasons across the Mediterranean and settled and not just in Israel, but the Sinai and what is today Lebanon and Syria. And you could see in the Bible King David is always fighting with a lot of people and book of Judges, everyone was always fighting with these guys. They cease to exist two and a half thousand years ago, when the Assyrians who were the great world power coming out of what is today the area of Iraq, more or less ended them. Like they end of the northern kingdom of Israel, just moved them somewhere else and they're gone. The name, however, was preserved by Greek and Roman history, Greek Roman writers, like Roman historians. If you fast forward to the second century of the Common Era, which corresponds to from 132 to 135, was the third major revolt of the Jews against the Romans and the biggest revolt in the history of the Roman Empire which is called the Bar Kokhba revolt. When the Romans after with great difficulty crushed that revolt, they decided we've had it with you Jews. We're like you're such You're such troublemakers. So what do they do, they go after Judaism, you know, the basically tried to destroy Judaism, but they decided we're going to one of the best ways to end you as a people is to end your connection to your country. So those of you who have survived physically, because so many Jews have died, we're gonna first of all change the whole name of the country, we used to call it the Romans said, the Roman Province of Judea after the Jews. Now we're going to name it after these extinct people called, we're going to call it Philistia. And we're going to rename all the cities in the country non Jewish names, we're going to rename the city of Shechem, where Joseph is buried, we're going to rename it Naples, much nicer Italian name. Now, by the way, Arabs don't have a p sound. Like they don't say pita bread, they say pida bread. So they call it Nablus. We're going to rename Jerusalem which by the way, we're going to rebuild as a pagan Roman city, plowing the Temple Mount under, building a temple to Jupiter on it. We're going to ban Jews from entering it, you know, cut Jews off from their spiritual political capital, hopefully, they'll disappear on us. We're going to rename it Aelia Capitolina after the Roman Emperor Hadrian. So that's where the term Philistia, it really gets associated with the Land of Israel. That term you know, there's no country we lose our second Commonwealth and different empires will come in. You have Romans and you have Byzantines and you have all these Islamic nations Umayyads and Abbasids, Ayyubids, Mamluk, Seljuks, Ottoman then the British come. The term Philistia well the Europeans will pick up on it and call this area of the Levant, this the greater area around us the Levant but also call it Palestine, not in association with a group of people just sort of preserving that Roman name geographically. What's interesting is the only people who call themselves fast forward to Jews returning with the founding of Zionism, early 19th, basically, late 19th, early 20th centuries, the only people who call themselves Palestinians were the Jewish people resettling in the land you know. The Jerusalem Post, which is the newspapers original name is the Palestine Post. El Al's original name Israel's airlines was Palestine Airways. The Arabs call themselves Arabs. So, in 1948, when Israel becomes a state, the Arabs continued to call themselves Arabs, they might call them they may refer to they're not going to further the land as Israel. So they would still call it Palestine because that's what everyone referred to it as. And the Jews change themselves the Jews change their name to Israelis, only in the mid 1960s, Achmed Sukukeri?sp and later with Yasser Arafat with al Fatah it's a whole complicated, don't want to get into too many details. By the way, they create the Palestine Liberation Organization, which interesting for most people don't know this. That was created basically, by the Soviet Union, through the Romanian Secret Service. And it was basically used because in the mid 1960s, then then sort of the cold war in the Middle East is going to break out with the Soviets backing the Arab countries and America basically taking strong side with Israel. And it will be used that whole Palestinian issue be used sort of sort of to de legitimatize, the Jewish claim to the land of Israel, using a people who never existed as people before, to try and like sort of deny the original inhabitants a connection to their land. The whole refugee issue we know is a byproduct of first of all the 1948 War. You know because you read these history books, they say 1948 a war broke out between the Arab states and Israel... war didn't break out. War doesn't... It's World War One you could say broke out, it's very complicated, but Israel, calls, calls for peace, the Arabs call for war, declare war and invade. Had they not invaded there would be no refugee issue. Many of the Arabs who left fled to fighting to get out of the way of the fighting, many Arab states told the Arabs like move out of the way so we can you know, you're not in the line of fire so we can kill the Jews don't with left into the sea, and then you can move back in again. Israel definitely cleared out some villages, especially on the Jerusalem Tel Aviv highway, where they were attacking, trying to cut Israel off, they did, they closed the road, they were trying to starve Jerusalem into submission. So there's definitely Arab communities that were cleared out. Those refugees went to different surrounding Arab states where they were never re-absorbed, by the way, at the same time between 48 and 67, a greater number of Sephardic Jews, Jews from the Middle East, living in Iraq, and Lebanon and Syria, these by the way these Jews had been living in places like Iraq, for two and a half thousand years way before Islam ever came into existence. The entire Middle East was made judenrein, which is the German term for 'Jew free' was ethnically cleansed of three quarters of a million Jews who lost many of them lost their lives, but most of them lost their property, public communal property businesses, the vast majority were absorbed by the Jewish state. And now a good chunk of the Sephardic Jewish population, many went to places like France, and you know, Montreal, they spoke French, and they're from Morocco or something. Meanwhile, those Arabs sort of festered. In these camps. Palestinians are the only refugees in the world who maintain refugee status 3, 4, 5, 6 generations later. Another wave of Palestinian refugees was caused in 67, when the Arab world again tried to destroy Israel, right. And this time, it was only it was, it was, you know, this was only three Arab armies. But this time, you know, Jerusalem, you know, the Jord... Jordanians were pushed back, Syria is pushed out of the Golan Heights. So that only further increased, but these people have been kept in this festering situation, denied citizenship, and used as like a whip to de-legitimatize, the Jewish people where they could have been absorbed into the country, the way Israel absorbed all those refugees who were thrown out of their countries. And they maintain... they remain in a unique refugee status, which is unique to them alone in theworld.

Jeff Futers: 18:43

So talk, talk to me a little bit more about that. You you indicated that this situation is being used in order to de-legitimize Israel. Is it? Is it fact that, you know, that the Arab states around have actually, you know, stated this? Or are we just assuming that this is what's happening?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 19:08

Yeah, the fact that they don't recognize the Jewish state's right to exist is de facto a recognition of you have no right to be there. You can't tell people you know, you have a right to be there, but we're gonna kill you. Their whole claim to be attacking Israel, because everyone, even evil people in history, I know always like to justify their agendas, with some higher cause, you know, even Hitler, conquering Europe, we're just conquering it to whatever, make the world a better place for a higher German civilization and get more land for our people. You know, we're not just slaughtering people for no reason. So de facto, yes, that's exactly what they're claiming and backing them have been a lot of international organizations, many political ideologies. Much of the left has bought into this narrative in many countries, many revolutionary movements in the world, this sort of interesting connection between the ANC in South Africa and the Palestine Liberations Organization and the Irish Republican Army. All of these revolutionary movements in South and Central America, it's sort of like it's sort of like a package deal of revolutionary movements to right wrongs regardless of how wrong the rights are, right the wrongs are. So this narrative is actually taken hold to a tremendous extent, to make peace with Israel involves on a certain level, even if you're not officially going to state it. A notion that you guys are here to stay. Whether I think you have a right to be here to stay is a different story. But at least I'm going to recognize that you are here and you are reality. The the irony of this whole thing is the notion that the Jewish people have been written out of their history. This is so bad that even UNESCO you know, most of the holy sites in Israel, almost every village in town, even the Arab ones are built on pre existing Jewish sites with the exception of Ramalah, pretty much every Arab city or town, whether it's in Judea, Samaria, or in Israel proper is built on a pre existing, Biblical Jewish location. But now even you know, international bodies like UNESCO have written Jews out of their own history, they recognize you know, the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron is recognized as an Islamic holy site. The temple mount is not called the Temple Mount anymore. It's recognize it's the holy site in the world for the Jews, but there's no connection. You know, it's not recognized. The Palestinian, you know, we talk about the Palestinians being refugees, they're bounced from place to place they try and overthrow Jordan in 1970. The Jordanians chuck them out, they go to Lebanon, they destabilize Lebanon, I was a very delicate balance of Christians, Muslim Shiites, Sunnis - civil war breaks out there, they use it as a launching base to attack Israel from the north, Israel goes into Lebanon 1982, you know, finally 1993 under Yitzak Rabin, they invite these people back in the land of Israel, giving them guns, they settled, but it was contingent, the Oslo Accords, were contingent on each side recognizing its historical and religious connection to Jerusalem, the Land of Israel, even though the Jewish connection is much deeper, longer, whatever. But each side will recognize Israel by letting the Palestinians and the Palestinian Authority back in and giving them guns and everything else... clearly did that, the Palestinian Authority fell very short on keeping their side of the deal. And until today, I can show you there's not one map, textbook, political leader, Palestinian archaeologist or historian that will admit that there ever was a Jewish presence in Israel before Zionism, that there ever was a temple in Jerusalem. So the intransigence of the Palestinians, and they've actually raised several generations of their own people who are so brainwashed with this this rhetoric, that they actually truly, really believe that the Jews are the foreign white colonialist occupier, which by the way is the narrative that much of the left has picked up around Europe and stuff that Israel is a vestige of white colonialism. Jews are all white people, they're from Europe, it's all lies, and and we now have a people who are completely unwilling to negotiate about how many times you offer them everything they want? They keep saying no.

Jeff Futers: 23:07

So before, we're gonna get right to the Abraham accord after this question, I promise but talk to me about the irony of the League of Nations who originally helped to make the case for a Jewish state, in the in the land of Israel or Palestine at the time. How does the League of Nations become the United Nations who now today are very, very far away from any sort of support, in my estimation of the State of Israel? How do we get there?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 23:40

So that's also a very interesting process. You know, the British were the major world power in this, you know, before you're talking about World War One up to World War Two, you know, there's a lot of sympathy even though there's a lot of pro Arab sentiment amongst the British government things, there's a lot of sympathy for the British to support the creation of a Jewish state, there was a certain level of that around the world. But when the UN is created, which is post World War Two, and I always say when I'm when I'm guiding, in Yad Vashem, which is the National Holocaust memorial site in Israel, I get to the end, you know, the narrative and Israel's reborn in the ashes of the Holocaust. And I say there's any silver lining, to the Holocaust, because the darkest clouds in Jewish history always have this silver lining, I say it's the creation of a Jewish state. I always say that the world in my perspective, because I am a historian and a Rabbi. So I will always say I wear two hats, I wear my little Rabbi hat, but I wear my historian hat. And I always try to look at it from the perspective of you know, on high down, you know, and from the bottom looking up, and I always say the world historically has not been able to really deal with Jews as victors. They prefer Jews as victims. That's the standard you know, model we've lived in. Pushed from country to country throughout Europe, persecuted killed, blamed for poisoning whales and being in league with the devil. And there's almost there's almost an algorithm you can come up with how many Jews are killed versus how much sympathy Israel gets. I think it took 6 million Jews dying for the world to feel sorry enough for the Jewish people for the UN to vote November 29 1947 Flushing Meadow, that's before they moved to the East Side 33 to 13 with 10 abstentions, thank God abstentions didn't count in the vote otherwise it wouldn't have happened, to create a Jewish state. So so there you had it wasn't the vote, you see the famous image everyone waiting by the radios to see well the world sanction the creation of a Jewish state. It wasn't a clear cut thing was going to happen. But what has happened since then, and Israel is largely perceived as the little, little, little David surrounded by the Goliath, you know, 22 states of the Arab League 5.5 million square miles of territory today, it's 300 million Arabs versus Israel 10 and a half thousand square miles of territory, you know, less than 7 million Jews. It's a little bit lopsided. That was the original thing, the kind of the combination of sympathy for the Holocaust in Israel like this little David against Goliath. But what's happened with Israel's surviving and prospering even winning major victories and, and the Cold War influence is from especially after 67 war, and to the present, the narrative has largely due to a lot of hard work on the part of you know, disinformation and propaganda has changed Israel is now the the the conflict has been micro-tized to Israel is the Goliath the Palestinians are the David and Israel is no longer legitimate and all the sympathy that came about because of the Holocaust and the guilt that, you know, was in European consciousness for either actively or not proactively doing something to save Jews or actively killing them has worn off. And now they're kind of sick of being beaten. And I heard a kind of very cynical line Germany's never forgiven the Jews for the Holocaust. They're sick of feeling guilty and if they can, and I'm not saying all Europeans are doing this, but I think a lot especially on the left, and even on the hard right too the both extremes, are never good, are basically if we could turn the Jews into the Nazis, and the Palestinians into the Jews, and like Israel, and the lies that come out... that Israeli army harvest Palestinian organs, and you know, is committing a genocide against Give me a break, you gotta be kidding. You know, if we can turn the Jews to the Nazis, so to speak, and turn and they usually actually use swastika emblems, and the anti-Israel cartoons now, they turned the six lines of the Star of David into a swastika, and we could turn the Palestinians into the Jews then the Jews are really no better than the Germans, we have to feel the Nazis were, we don't feel we have to feel guilty anymore. And we can first ideologically undo our support for Islam, then physically undo it, just get rid of this little annoying moral thorn in our side, which is kind of messing up our narrative. That's my kind of cynical take on it. But that's how the world is transformed from being pro Israel sympathetic and supporting the creation of a Jewish state, to now, US Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Australia, Canada, when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister, for sure, you know, a few other places are staunchly pro Israel and the rest are standing on the sidelines or are actively kind of condemning us. It's kind of scary.

Jeff Futers: 28:12

Very, very interesting insight. And so when we, when we think about all of that, and and where that situation sort of lies today. How huge is this recent deal between, you know, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, and Israel brokered by, you know, the great, the great, controversial leader of the United States? Can we say his name, I guess we are Donald Trump. How huge is this? And what does it mean for Israel right now?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 28:51

Well, first of all, I have to give Trump credit. I don't know what listeners think of him or not, the guy's a businessman. I'm a big believer, by the way, nothing to do with Trump. But that, you know, businessmen should run states cities and countries because they're all businesses. Trump understood one thing, I think, is the art of the deal. He wrote this book, I never read it. But he understood you know, that there's a quote, attributed to Albert Einstein, which he didn't say, but the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistake over and over, repeating the same experiment over and over again expecting a different result. Now the Palestinians have gotten to this mold of if we can we can continually attack Israel violent all of our agreements, say no to everything. And the World War, strain is real. And always give us another chance to say no, and support us and pour billions of dollars into our economy, and yada yada yada, and it's like, it ain't working.This has been this has been going on since 48. So Trump thinks I'm going to try something completely different. And remember, like first of all, recognizing Jerusalem as the capital. Oh, my God, the world's gonna explode the Middle East is gonna blow up nothing. Nothing, it was unbelievable how little happened. And then he makes this deal. You know, because the Palestinians were smart and really wanted peace. They have the best arrangement of any Arabs in the world. The neighbors of Israel, you know, let's just let's make peace. We'll we'll have all these industrial parks and high tech parks together with those Jewish people who are so creative and you know, Silicone Wadi and they're so you know, they'll think of all the great ideas. We have cheap labor, we got the Arabs around us with all this cheap energy. The Middle East could be like China on steroids. And that's because they see Israel, you know, Arab's may not like Israel, they respect Israel, democracy and they respect Israel, innovation, even the ones who hate our guts. So Trump says, Now let's try something different. So he tried his new you know, the deal of the century thing, which didn't get off the ground, but I think it shook people up to realize we got to try a different formula and also, the Arabs have bigger fish to fry. The notion of pan Arab unity is gone. If this is a topic, we could talk, Jeff for hours, but the Arab world may yell and scream about Israel, but trust me Shiites and Sunnis, the Iranians are Shiites, you know, Hezbollah is Shiite. These guys hate each other's guts, and it's a big power struggle going on between, you know, Sunni powers like Saudi Arabia and Egypt versus and then you have Turkey on this side and you've got Iran which is freaking countries like Saudi Arabia and the Emirates out. They are... they're really threatened by those guys. They know Israel's not gonna start this was never started a war with any of its neighbors. So you know, there's, you know, that great saying in the Middle East my enemie's, enemie's my friend. A lot of this is coming out of a practical realization that we need to align ourselves with people who are really going to be on our side and have common interest. The interest is opposing radicalism and Iran. It's also out of complete burnout on the part of a lot of Arab states with the Palestinians like how many decades you guys gonna go on acting like this Why do we have to pump money into you? You're just an obstacle to us developing. And countries like the Emirates, you know, UAE is really is Europe finally getting it right. Instead of artificially creating these countries that have no cohesion like Iraq... Sunni Shiites, Kurds that have nothing in common and don't get along, they finally realize that the Middle East is tribal. And, and religiously divided. And if you can create if you look, anyone your listeners should watch should look at a map of how these Emirate states are divided their their little, little fiefdoms. They're like states in America, you have a certain amount of autonomy and a certain amount of cohesive unity, but you have a lot of independence and you can keep your own area. It works much better. And these guys are Bedouins, they're just the UAE is one giant family. It's one and Bedouins by the way. It's the rest of the Arab world looks down on them, but they think they're the real true Arabs. They're extremely loyal. They're their word is their honor. And they see a great opportunity here. So this is sort of Israel, leapfrogging over its neighbors, most of which are in pathetically bad shape. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, these countries are such loser states that could be such winners if they had peace with Israel. And just going to the Arab states, which while seemingly quite Muslim, you know, they're very, they're very religious states. They're not secular states, like a lot of other Arab states were more secular. But these guys are truly interested in having a strategic and economic relationship with Israel. And it's sort of like, you know, what Egypt did costs cost Sadat his life, for making peace with Israel in 79. Now, you've got, basically four countries have peace treaties. We are already on the way to being up to you know, maybe a quarter of the Arab League is going to have peace treaty with Israel. And I think you're going to see more and more but so this is really a game changer. And I think as the will it last, I don't know but I think as the bigger issues the geopolitical realities, the economic strategic challenges, these countries wake up to it. They're going to recognize that there's a lot to be gained by having a relationship with Israel and very little to be lost by doing that. So I think it's huge and unlike the peace with Egypt, and with Jordan, which is a cold peace, there's no cultural exchange, they hate our guts especially Jordanians, really the same people as the Palestinians because these are all the same Arabs. They just have random you know, names they took upon themselves based on the artificially created borders like Palestinians. Jordanians is no different the same people. These are not ancient peoples. Jordan is not an ancient country. That that we're gonna see now that the other...these other states that are further away from us, that aren't so traditionally hostile that were never war with us. We're just, we're no t making a peace treaty with you know, United Arab Emirates or Bahrain, we're gonna make we're normalizing relations. So and unlike those countries like Jordan and Egypt, where it was always nasty to go there, they really want us there. All the hotels have to have kosher food. I think it's going to be we'll remember this conversation. I'm pretty sure when things normalize because of COVID-19 that that UAE is going to be the hottest tourist destination for Israelis. I can promise you. Everyone is really... is going to want to go there. They're so desperate to have that relationship and they're going to be so happy to go somewhere people you like like Israelis used to go to Turkey before Erdogan, it was the number one tourist destination. Yeah, we love we do anything for peace. We love anyone who wants to be nice to us, we'll give you our money, we'll give you our technology.

Jeff Futers: 35:08

And I just saw the first kosher restaurant opened in, in Dubai, in the tallest building in the world. Did I see that?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 35:15

I think so. Yeah, that was unbelievable.

Jeff Futers: 35:18

Yeah, you'll..we'll have to go check it out.

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 35:20

Maybe they'll have bungee cord jumping after the meal?

Jeff Futers: 35:23

Maybe? I don't know if that will help digest or the opposite. But anyway, that's, that's very interesting. So I love to hear your take on what's happening. In your opinion, will this will this continue? Will, will other Arab states follow?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 35:44

I think so, there'll be more and not necessarily Arab but Muslim states, because there's 22 states of the Arab League, and there's I think 56 countries that have Islam, like these African, many of the states in North Africa. And it has a lot to do, I think a lot will depend on, first of all, the big thing is US elections. I see Trump is really on the warpath, trying to do deals, you know, you know, with peace treaties with Israel, he's putting a lot of pressure on offering a lot of stuff. I don't know, if if Biden gets reelected, I have a feeling that will not continue that way. I think a lot depends on which Arab states are willing to take the leap before there's an Israel Palestinian agreement. But in my opinion, if the Arabs really cared about the Palestinians, they would tell them to grow up. Because the number one thing that will trigger peace. You know, Tony Blair, just said this was fascinating. He's the former Prime Minister, this labour Prime Minister of England, who's in charge of like the Middle East peace negotiator for the European Union. He said, we got it all wrong. It's amazing. He's exactly validating what Trump is doing. He's saying, the way to get peace of the Palestinians is for Israel. Because when you feel you have an enemy within you, who's attacking enemies without you only willing to risk stuff, when you feel secure, and when you feel so if you change the whole paradigm that is not like within without we break this kind of connection of the Arab world rejection of Israel, of the Palestinian issue, and the Palestinians realize, hey, we're losing our support. We can't just keep acting like petulant, spoiled terrorist children. Israel's doing great, you know, we better just grab what we can while we can, before we end up totally isolated, and Qatar stops giving us money, which is basically keeping them going in Gaza. You know, so that could be if the Arabs are really smart, and really, they don't really care about the Palestinians. That's clear to me. But if I think they really wanted to push the peace process forward, the more Arab states truly normalize relations with Israel, I think the quicker you would actually see a normalization of normalization of relationship with Palestinians, not necessarily the leadership they have now. Mahmoud Abbas is in the 15th year of his four year term. These are not democracies, they're not stable countries, not industrialized, Hamas is even worse. But I think the average path, the talk on the street that I know of, is that the many of the Palestinians, you know, Abbas is threatening to end the Palestinian Authority and give it all back to Israel to be the occupying power. Apparently, a lot of the Palestinians are please can we have Israel back? Just Palestinian Authority, and how much the especially the pious is so corrupt? And so not doing anything to make their people any better lives like Gaza? Sharon gave them Gaza, what do they do? They threw the Palestinians out, and they've turned it into a terrorist launching site. There could be all these technology parks, that could be such a great symbiotic relationship between the Arab population of Gaza and the communities around there... It would be paradise, beautiful beaches, hotels, just got to be normal. Just gotta be normal.

Jeff Futers: 38:44

Yeah. Yeah, I came to sort of my realization of the depth of the corruption in, in the Palestinian state when when I was visiting Mount Gerezim, near Nablus. And my friend, my guide, who was was with me pointed to a huge building. And he said, What do you think that is? And I, I mean, it was so massive, I thought it was like a, some sort of temple or, or, you know, great, great monument of history. He said, No, that that was Arafat's house. I couldn't believe it. I, you know, I'm with my camera. I'm zooming in on this place. And it's like, it's unbelievably massive. And I'm thinking, Okay, so where does the aid money go? And that's, that's the thing,

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 39:31

He was a multi-billionaire as is Abbas, right? by the way, I'll say interesting factoid. I don't know if it's still true, but it was that the UN has two... one body for all refugee issues in the world, which deals with 10s of millions of people, right? Palestine is the only people in the world that have their own. It's called UNWRA. You know, it's existed since 48. To deal just with them and UNWRA's budget exceeded the budget of all refugee issues in the world combined. They've addicted these people to welfare, not just in Israel. Not just in these camps, but also in the surrounding Arab states. And we know that welfare states don't work. You see in America the danger of doing that, you see it anywhere in the world. You addict people to giving them free stuff and allow them to get away with literally murder while not holding them accountable for anything and making them feel they're entitled to everything. And they end up being the biggest losers and the people in...and they are they are they've never...the great line is Yassar Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Jeff Futers: 40:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, one last question. And then I'm gonna let you go, because I know you got other stuff to do. But what has this done internally in the land of Israel, this peace deal? Has it had a negative impact in terms of the Palestinians and and their relationship with Israel, their aggression against Israel? Has it kind of ramped things up? What's going on?

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 40:47

Well, their anger is not at Israel. I mean, they're always angry at Israel, right? This is a constant maintenance level of rage in Israel, burning flags and stuff and stepping on pictures of Bibi and whatever their rage is directed at at, you know, the leaders of you know, countries like the United Arab Emirates. You traitors, you sold us out, you didn't maintain the but as you see, again, proving yet again, didn't explode in another Intifada, violence. You know, one of the the only positive side of COVID-19 is, you know, there's really, there's very little going on here, in terms of things are very quiet. Good, you know, there's always a lot more going on. Even when I'm living here. I know what's going on. But I have my kids in the army. And they would tell me all these things that I said that didn't make the news that didn't make the news that didn't make the news. I mean, Israel is a country that lives in a constant state of like, you know, a state of emergency preventing terrorism, on a level that no one in the Western world not in Canada certainly doesn't appreciate or America. So, on the ground, you don't see you don't feel any different. You don't feel any more tension, none of that here, nothing's exploded. But I think it's a big wake up call for the Arab world that hopefully, bottom up, maybe they'll recognize that this is not working, we got to change our leadership that's what we live in hope. That's that's the, that's the only possible good outcome I could see from their end is demanding, changing, wanting to get a piece of the pie before it's all sliced up and given to everyone else.

Jeff Futers: 42:09

Great. Well, Ken, thanks so much for your time today. Appreciate you taking some time to chat with me. And I hope that soon, we can actually have dinner together. Somewhere along Jaffa street or on the Shuk, one of the things I'm saddest about is that I'm fairly certain this, this COVID-19 will change the landscape of some of my favorite restaurants in Jerusalem. I know here in North America, you know, lots of lots of restaurants, some very successful ones are going out of business because of because of what's been happening. And so hopefully, we'll still be able to get together for dinner.

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 42:52

I hope so soon...and in our days, as we say,

Jeff Futers: 42:54

Yeah, Yeah, exactly. All right, Ken, thanks so much. And

Rabbi Ken Spiro: 42:59

Thanks for having me. Take care, stay stay sane and healthy in this crazy world.

Jeff Futers: 43:03

Yes, will do you also. Well I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ken Spiro today. And Ken has just such a wealth of information that he is able to share with us. He has learned and knows so much. And some great insight that he shared today about these Peace Accords and about whether or not peace is going to be lasting in the region. We want to hope and believe that that can be the case. And I encourage you check out some of Ken's material on his website. Remember, he is Jewish, he is a religious Jew. We are Christian believers. Many of those of you who listen would be Christians. But it's great to get the Jewish perspective. And to to hear Ken's insight. I think it's very, very helpful to us. I want to remind you, that we are a ministry, a ministry that is coming alongside and praying for and helping many ministries in Israel who are providing providing practical and humanitarian aid there in the land of Israel. We want to be able to continue to assist them and if you would like to help us do that, then you can go to our website, firstcenturyfoundations.com/donate, so that you can help us with a financial gift. We certainly appreciate your prayers as well. And just want to say again, thank you for listening. God bless you. And remember, as Christians, we stand with Israel.